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From pgsql-hackers-owner+M4145@postgresql.org Sat Feb 3 05:54:06 2001
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Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2001 10:46:24 +0000
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To: Alex Pilosov <alex@pilosoft.com>, tomasz konefal <twkonefal@yahoo.ca>
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From: Peter Mount <peter@retep.org.uk>
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Subject: Re: [HACKERS] TODO list: Allow Java server-side programming
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Cc: pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org
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In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSO.4.10.10102021453160.9372-100000@spider.pilosoft.c
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om>
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References: <20010202194049.38902.qmail@web12003.mail.yahoo.com>
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Status: OR
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At 14:57 02/02/01 -0500, Alex Pilosov wrote:
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>On Fri, 2 Feb 2001, tomasz konefal wrote:
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>
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> > could someone please clarify what "Allow Java
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> > server-side programming" actually means? what are the
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> > limitations of using java and jdbc with pgsql?
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>
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>It means to embed Java interpreter inside postgres, and allow writing
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>stored procedures and triggers in Java.
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Thats correct. Basically you are talking of something like PL/Java. The
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Java side would be simple, but its linking the JVM to the backend that's
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the problem.
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It's been a while since I delved into the backend, but unless it's changed
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from fork() to threading, I don't really see this happening, unless someone
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who knows C that well knows of a portable way of communicating between two
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processes - other than RMI. If that could be solved, then you could use JNI
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to interface the JVM.
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I know some people think this would slow the backend down, but it's only
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the instanciation of the JVM thats slow, hence the other reason fork() is
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holding this back. Ideally you would want the JVM to be running with
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PostMaster, and then each backend can then use the JVM as and when necessary.
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Obviously you wouldn't want a JVM in every installation, but there are a
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lot of good reasons to have this capability. For example, as part of the
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course I did this week, we used Tomcat (Servlet/JSP/Web server). Now
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there's no reason why Tomcat could run within the same JVM. JBoss is
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another good example (EJB Server). The JBoss team have actually got Tomcat
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to run within the same JVM. Doesn't hinder performance at all, but does
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reduce the memory footprint.
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This is a good future thing to look into (why not for 8.0 ;-) ). If we
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could find an _optional_ way of hooking the backend direct into the JVM, we
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could get PostgreSQL into a lot of new areas. It also would make things
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like CORBA etc a doddle.
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PS: I'm writing down notes of the course to go onto the JDBC web site this
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weekend, so there's some nice things for EJB, RMI, Corba etc.
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More later, Peter
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From pgsql-hackers-owner+M4153@postgresql.org Sat Feb 3 11:54:12 2001
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Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 17:56:33 +0100 (CET)
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From: Peter Eisentraut <peter_e@gmx.net>
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To: Peter Mount <peter@retep.org.uk>
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cc: Alex Pilosov <alex@pilosoft.com>, tomasz konefal <twkonefal@yahoo.ca>,
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<pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>
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Subject: Re: [HACKERS] TODO list: Allow Java server-side programming
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In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20010203103036.009efec0@mail.retep.org.uk>
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Status: OR
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Peter Mount writes:
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> Thats correct. Basically you are talking of something like PL/Java. The
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> Java side would be simple, but its linking the JVM to the backend that's
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> the problem.
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I've tried that recently, here's how it looks as far as Linux JVMs go:
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* Kaffe has a very polluted name space. Calls to its own functions get
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resolved to PostgreSQL, and vice versa. Crash and burn result. The Kaffe
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folks have admitted that this should be fixed but I didn't look farther
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yet.
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* The Sun/Blackdown JVM didn't work at all (not even 'java -version')
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until I upgraded my libc. Then a simple test run crashes with an "error
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external to JVM"; at first it looked like a segfault when referencing a
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string constant. In gdb I saw myself faced with about 10 threads running
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when nothing was going on yet, at which point I was too exhausted to
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proceed.
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* IBM's offering didn't work at all. I don't recall the problem anymore
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but I think it didn't even link correctly.
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So currently I don't see how this could become a mainstream project, let
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alone across platforms.
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> I know some people think this would slow the backend down, but it's only
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> the instanciation of the JVM thats slow, hence the other reason fork() is
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> holding this back. Ideally you would want the JVM to be running with
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> PostMaster, and then each backend can then use the JVM as and when necessary.
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But how do the other languages cope? Starting up a new Perl for each
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backend can't be so cheap either.
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--
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Peter Eisentraut peter_e@gmx.net http://yi.org/peter-e/
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From pgsql-hackers-owner+M4154@postgresql.org Sat Feb 3 12:37:02 2001
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Sat, 3 Feb 2001 12:36:01 -0500 (EST)
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Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 12:36:01 -0500 (EST)
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From: Alex Pilosov <alex@pilosoft.com>
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To: Peter Mount <peter@retep.org.uk>
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cc: Alex Pilosov <alex@pilosoft.com>, tomasz konefal <twkonefal@yahoo.ca>,
|
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pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org
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Subject: Re: [HACKERS] TODO list: Allow Java server-side programming
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In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20010203103036.009efec0@mail.retep.org.uk>
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Status: OR
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On Sat, 3 Feb 2001, Peter Mount wrote:
|
||
|
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> It's been a while since I delved into the backend, but unless it's
|
||
> changed from fork() to threading, I don't really see this happening,
|
||
> unless someone who knows C that well knows of a portable way of
|
||
> communicating between two processes - other than RMI. If that could be
|
||
> solved, then you could use JNI to interface the JVM.
|
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There are many ways one can do this:
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a) each backend will have a JVM linked in (shared object). This is the
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way perl/tcl/ruby is embedded, and it works pretty nice. But, Java
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['s memory requirement] sucks, therefore, this may not be the optimal
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||
way.
|
||
|
||
> I know some people think this would slow the backend down, but it's
|
||
> only the instanciation of the JVM thats slow, hence the other reason
|
||
> fork() is holding this back. Ideally you would want the JVM to be
|
||
> running with PostMaster, and then each backend can then use the JVM as
|
||
> and when necessary.
|
||
b) since JVM is threaded, it may be more efficient to have a dedicated
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process running JVM, and accepting some sort of IPC connections from
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postgres processes. The biggest problem here is SPI, there aren't a good
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way for that JVM to talk back to database.
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c) temporarily, to have quick working code, you can reach java using hacks
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using programming languages already built into postgres. Both TCL (tcl
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blend) and Perl (JPL and another hack which name escapes me) are able to
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execute java code. SPI is possible, I think both of these bindings are
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two-way (you can go perl-java-perl-java). Might be worth a quick try?
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-alex
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||
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||
|
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From pgsql-hackers-owner+M4164@postgresql.org Sun Feb 4 04:23:42 2001
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Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2001 11:18:09 +0200
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To: Peter Mount <peter@retep.org.uk>
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CC: Alex Pilosov <alex@pilosoft.com>, tomasz konefal <twkonefal@yahoo.ca>,
|
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pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org
|
||
Subject: Re: [HACKERS] TODO list: Allow Java server-side programming
|
||
References: <20010202194049.38902.qmail@web12003.mail.yahoo.com> <5.0.2.1.0.20010203103036.009efec0@mail.retep.org.uk>
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Status: OR
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||
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||
Peter Mount wrote:
|
||
>
|
||
> At 14:57 02/02/01 -0500, Alex Pilosov wrote:
|
||
> >On Fri, 2 Feb 2001, tomasz konefal wrote:
|
||
> >
|
||
> > > could someone please clarify what "Allow Java
|
||
> > > server-side programming" actually means? what are the
|
||
> > > limitations of using java and jdbc with pgsql?
|
||
> >
|
||
> >It means to embed Java interpreter inside postgres, and allow writing
|
||
> >stored procedures and triggers in Java.
|
||
>
|
||
> Thats correct. Basically you are talking of something like PL/Java. The
|
||
> Java side would be simple, but its linking the JVM to the backend that's
|
||
> the problem.
|
||
>
|
||
> It's been a while since I delved into the backend, but unless it's changed
|
||
> from fork() to threading,
|
||
|
||
Someone posted here recently his port/tweaks of backend so that it used
|
||
threads instead of fork(). IIRC it was done to be used inside a java
|
||
client in an embedded system.
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||
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----------------
|
||
Hannu
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||
|
||
From pgsql-hackers-owner+M4168@postgresql.org Sun Feb 4 06:54:27 2001
|
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Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2001 11:51:21 +0000
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To: Peter Eisentraut <peter_e@gmx.net>
|
||
From: Peter Mount <peter@retep.org.uk>
|
||
Subject: Re: [HACKERS] TODO list: Allow Java server-side programming
|
||
Cc: Alex Pilosov <alex@pilosoft.com>, tomasz konefal <twkonefal@yahoo.ca>,
|
||
<pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>
|
||
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.30.0102031746220.8648-100000@peter.localdomain>
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Status: OR
|
||
|
||
At 17:56 03/02/01 +0100, Peter Eisentraut wrote:
|
||
>Peter Mount writes:
|
||
>
|
||
> > Thats correct. Basically you are talking of something like PL/Java. The
|
||
> > Java side would be simple, but its linking the JVM to the backend that's
|
||
> > the problem.
|
||
>
|
||
>I've tried that recently, here's how it looks as far as Linux JVMs go:
|
||
|
||
[snip]
|
||
|
||
|
||
>So currently I don't see how this could become a mainstream project, let
|
||
>alone across platforms.
|
||
|
||
I don't think it would be, but it would be a good side-project. Over time
|
||
the various JVM's should become better to interface with.
|
||
|
||
|
||
> > I know some people think this would slow the backend down, but it's only
|
||
> > the instanciation of the JVM thats slow, hence the other reason fork() is
|
||
> > holding this back. Ideally you would want the JVM to be running with
|
||
> > PostMaster, and then each backend can then use the JVM as and when
|
||
> necessary.
|
||
>
|
||
>But how do the other languages cope? Starting up a new Perl for each
|
||
>backend can't be so cheap either.
|
||
|
||
But a lot cheaper than Java.
|
||
|
||
Peter
|
||
|
||
|
||
From pgsql-hackers-owner+M4169@postgresql.org Sun Feb 4 06:57:24 2001
|
||
Received: from mail.postgresql.org (webmail.postgresql.org [216.126.85.28])
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|
||
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|
||
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|
||
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|
||
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|
||
(envelope-from peter@retep.org.uk)
|
||
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|
||
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|
||
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.0.2
|
||
Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2001 11:54:20 +0000
|
||
To: Alex Pilosov <alex@pilosoft.com>
|
||
From: Peter Mount <peter@retep.org.uk>
|
||
Subject: Re: [HACKERS] TODO list: Allow Java server-side programming
|
||
Cc: Alex Pilosov <alex@pilosoft.com>, tomasz konefal <twkonefal@yahoo.ca>,
|
||
pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org
|
||
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSO.4.10.10102031220470.10437-100000@spider.pilosoft.
|
||
com>
|
||
References: <5.0.2.1.0.20010203103036.009efec0@mail.retep.org.uk>
|
||
Mime-Version: 1.0
|
||
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|
||
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|
||
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|
||
Status: OR
|
||
|
||
At 12:36 03/02/01 -0500, Alex Pilosov wrote:
|
||
>On Sat, 3 Feb 2001, Peter Mount wrote:
|
||
|
||
[snip]
|
||
|
||
|
||
> > I know some people think this would slow the backend down, but it's
|
||
> > only the instanciation of the JVM thats slow, hence the other reason
|
||
> > fork() is holding this back. Ideally you would want the JVM to be
|
||
> > running with PostMaster, and then each backend can then use the JVM as
|
||
> > and when necessary.
|
||
>b) since JVM is threaded, it may be more efficient to have a dedicated
|
||
>process running JVM, and accepting some sort of IPC connections from
|
||
>postgres processes. The biggest problem here is SPI, there aren't a good
|
||
>way for that JVM to talk back to database.
|
||
|
||
That was my other idea, but it is the IPC thats problematical. You would
|
||
still need to do some native api to implement some messaging system between
|
||
the two.
|
||
|
||
However, at the other extreme there is RPC, which is possible now, but
|
||
would be a lot slower.
|
||
|
||
|
||
>c) temporarily, to have quick working code, you can reach java using hacks
|
||
>using programming languages already built into postgres. Both TCL (tcl
|
||
>blend) and Perl (JPL and another hack which name escapes me) are able to
|
||
>execute java code. SPI is possible, I think both of these bindings are
|
||
>two-way (you can go perl-java-perl-java). Might be worth a quick try?
|
||
|
||
Might be one way to go...
|
||
|
||
Peter
|
||
|
||
>-alex
|
||
>
|
||
|
||
|
||
From pgsql-jdbc-owner+M884@postgresql.org Wed Jun 27 13:36:09 2001
|
||
Return-path: <pgsql-jdbc-owner+M884@postgresql.org>
|
||
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||
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|
||
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|
||
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|
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|
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||
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|
||
Reply-To: <Dave@micro-automation.net>
|
||
From: "Dave Cramer" <Dave@micro-automation.net>
|
||
To: "'Barry Lind'" <barry@xythos.com>
|
||
cc: <pgsql-jdbc@postgresql.org>
|
||
Subject: [JDBC] RE: Todo/missing? (was Re: [ADMIN] High memory usage [PATCH])
|
||
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 13:22:42 -0400
|
||
Organization: Micro Automation Inc.
|
||
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|
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|
||
Status: OR
|
||
|
||
Barry,
|
||
|
||
The getXXXFunctions aren't implemented
|
||
Some of the other functions are correct for version 7.1 but not for
|
||
previous versions. Ie. The row length, etc. I think the driver should
|
||
get the version and determine what is correct for each version.
|
||
|
||
I think this is incorrect.
|
||
public boolean supportsSelectForUpdate() throws SQLException
|
||
{
|
||
// XXX-Not Implemented
|
||
return false;
|
||
}
|
||
|
||
There are a number of things here which are hard coded, and possible
|
||
wrong.
|
||
|
||
I started to work on this, but since I am going on vacation next week I
|
||
have a number of fires to get down to a slow burn before I go.
|
||
|
||
Dave
|
||
|
||
-----Original Message-----
|
||
From: Barry Lind [mailto:barry@xythos.com]
|
||
Sent: June 26, 2001 9:22 PM
|
||
To: Dave Cramer
|
||
Cc: pgsql-jdbc@postgresql.org
|
||
Subject: Re: Todo/missing? (was Re: [ADMIN] High memory usage [PATCH])
|
||
|
||
Dave,
|
||
|
||
Can you give a little more detail on what you mean by 'Improved
|
||
DatabaseMetaData'? What specific areas are currently lacking?
|
||
|
||
thanks,
|
||
--Barry
|
||
|
||
|
||
>>On Mon, Jun 25, 2001 at 10:56:18PM -0400, Dave Cramer wrote:
|
||
>>
|
||
>>>I have to agree, we need to compile a todo list.
|
||
>>>
|
||
>>>Mine would include:
|
||
>>>
|
||
>>>1) Comprehensive test suite. This may be available already.
|
||
>>>2) Updateable resultSet
|
||
>>>3) Improved DatabaseMetaData
|
||
>>>4) Compatible blob support
|
||
>>>
|
||
>
|
||
> Added to official PostgreSQL TODO:
|
||
>
|
||
> * JDBC
|
||
> * Comprehensive test suite. This may be available already.
|
||
> * Updateable resultSet
|
||
> * Improved DatabaseMetaData
|
||
> * Compatible blob support
|
||
>
|
||
>
|
||
|
||
|
||
|
||
|
||
---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
|
||
TIP 4: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster
|
||
|
||
From pgsql-jdbc-owner+M968@postgresql.org Sun Jul 8 18:59:29 2001
|
||
Return-path: <pgsql-jdbc-owner+M968@postgresql.org>
|
||
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|
||
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|
||
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|
||
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||
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|
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|
||
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|
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|
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|
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|
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|
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|
||
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|
||
Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2001 00:55:37 +0200 (CEST)
|
||
From: Peter Eisentraut <peter_e@gmx.net>
|
||
To: <pgsql-jdbc@postgresql.org>
|
||
Subject: [JDBC] To do list for DatabaseMetaData
|
||
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.30.0107090041240.677-100000@peter.localdomain>
|
||
MIME-Version: 1.0
|
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|
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Status: OR
|
||
|
||
Since DatabaseMetaData seems to have been a subject of interest lately I
|
||
have composed a list of concrete things that need to be done there.
|
||
|
||
The spec of DatabaseMetaData is here:
|
||
http://java.sun.com/j2se/1.3/docs/api/java/sql/DatabaseMetaData.html
|
||
|
||
All the functions listed in the spec and not listed below I have recently
|
||
checked and updated for correctness and compliance. Thus, this list is
|
||
complete. Functions marked with '?' I have not checked yet.
|
||
|
||
If someone wants to tackle some of the getThings() functions, a
|
||
description of the system catalogs is in the Developer's Guide. Also note
|
||
that some functions currently incorrectly handle the case of null patterns
|
||
vs. "" patterns vs. "%" patterns.
|
||
|
||
At least two parameters obtained by a DatabaseMetaData method are
|
||
user-tunable on the server side. The only way to get at those numbers
|
||
currently is to use SHOW and parse the NOTICE: it sends back (which is
|
||
impossible in the days of internationalized messages), so a nice
|
||
side-project would be to implement a get_config_variable(text) returns
|
||
text (better names possible) function to allow easier access.
|
||
|
||
Now the list:
|
||
|
||
allProceduresAreCallable() not all procedures listed are
|
||
callable (triggers, in/out)
|
||
allTablesAreSelectable() should this check access
|
||
privileges or what?
|
||
getSQLKeywords() outdated, could be automated like
|
||
keywords.sgml
|
||
getNumericFunctions() decide what exactly is a "numeric function"?
|
||
getStringFunctions() ditto
|
||
getSystemFunctions() ditto
|
||
getTimeDateFunctions() ditto
|
||
getExtraNameCharacters() server allows \200 to \377, how
|
||
does this fit in with Unicode?
|
||
getMaxColumnNameLength() 32 is hard-coded here, maybe query server
|
||
getMaxColumnsInIndex() this should be detected from server
|
||
getMaxColumnsInTable() this limit is probably shaky
|
||
getMaxConnections() could query the server for this
|
||
(SHOW, see above)
|
||
getMaxCursorNameLength() 32 hard-coded
|
||
getMaxSchemaNameLength() will be 32 when done
|
||
getMaxProcedureNameLength() 32 hard-coded
|
||
getMaxCatalogNameLength() should be NAMEDATALEN
|
||
doesMaxRowSizeIncludeBlobs() since we don't have blobs, should
|
||
this throw an exception?
|
||
getMaxStatements() questionable, see comment there
|
||
getMaxTableNameLength() 32 hard-coded
|
||
getMaxUserNameLength() 32 hard-coded
|
||
getDefaultTransactionIsolation() This is configurable in 7.2.
|
||
(SHOW, see above)
|
||
getProcedures() missing catalog (database) and
|
||
remarks columns
|
||
getProcedureColumns() only dummy implementation
|
||
getTables() fails to handle pre-7.1 servers
|
||
(relkind 'v')
|
||
getSchemas() This should throw an exception.
|
||
getTableTypes() ?
|
||
getColumns() ?
|
||
getColumnPrivileges() not implemented
|
||
getTablePrivileges() not implemented
|
||
getBestRowIdentifier() only dummy implementation
|
||
getVersionColumns() not implemented
|
||
getPrimaryKeys() ?
|
||
getImportedKeys() ?
|
||
getExportedKeys() not implemented
|
||
getCrossReference() not implemented
|
||
getTypeInfo() ?
|
||
getIndexInfo() ?
|
||
getUDTs() ?
|
||
|
||
|
||
--
|
||
Peter Eisentraut peter_e@gmx.net http://funkturm.homeip.net/~peter
|
||
|
||
|
||
---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
|
||
TIP 6: Have you searched our list archives?
|
||
|
||
http://www.postgresql.org/search.mpl
|
||
|
||
From pgsql-general-owner+M14602@postgresql.org Sat Sep 1 00:50:49 2001
|
||
Return-path: <pgsql-general-owner+M14602@postgresql.org>
|
||
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|
||
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|
||
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|
||
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|
||
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|
||
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|
||
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|
||
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|
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|
||
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|
||
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|
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|
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for <pgsql-general@postgresql.org>; Fri, 31 Aug 2001 22:59:07 -0500
|
||
From: "Robert J. Sanford, Jr." <rsanford@nolimitsystems.com>
|
||
To: <pgsql-general@postgresql.org>
|
||
Subject: Re: [GENERAL] PL/java?
|
||
Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 23:02:04 -0500
|
||
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|
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|
||
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|
||
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|
||
Status: OR
|
||
|
||
note - i don't work for any of the companies whose products
|
||
are mentioned below. i have performed evaluations of these
|
||
products and the support provided when attempting to determine
|
||
what platform my company's systems should run on. unfortunately,
|
||
i did not choose orion and i am suffering for it now...
|
||
|
||
some goober blathered thusly:
|
||
> Have you ever actually used Java on an enterprise-level
|
||
> application? Ever see the Tomcat webserver? It uses
|
||
> 100MB of memory, drives the load on our server up to 8,
|
||
> and doesn't serve nearly as fast apache. Do you really
|
||
> want that in your database?
|
||
|
||
first - don't complain about java because you or someone
|
||
in your group/department/company made a poor decision on
|
||
what tools to use. that's like complaining about mexican
|
||
food when the only experience you have is eating an out-
|
||
dated frozen burrito from the 7-11 freezer.
|
||
|
||
when looking at the performance of java you have to take
|
||
a look at two things - first you have to compare various
|
||
java implementations against each other and then you have
|
||
to compare the best java implementations against native
|
||
c/c++ code. the following link does that. the java tests
|
||
include tomcat, orion, websphere, and resin. jrun and
|
||
weblogic were originally included in the testing but
|
||
were both removed at their companies' request.
|
||
|
||
the tests also compare orion vs microsoft asp running on
|
||
win2k and iis5. all tests run on the same hardware.
|
||
|
||
what i believe these tests clearly demonstrate is that
|
||
java is not the problem, the implementation applications
|
||
based on java is. i also do not believe that tomcat is
|
||
a fair representation of java performance in that it is
|
||
intended to be a reference implementation. as such, the
|
||
code base should sacrifice performance for clarity.
|
||
|
||
http://www.orionserver.com/benchmarks/benchmark.html
|
||
|
||
|
||
while not in the benchmark i would also like to
|
||
recommend jetty as an app server. it is an opensource,
|
||
100% java web and application server. in its base form
|
||
it is "just" a web, servlet, and jsp engine. it does,
|
||
however, have contributed code providing integration
|
||
with other j2ee opensource projects such as the JBoss
|
||
EJB engine.
|
||
|
||
you can find the jetty home page at:
|
||
http://jetty.mortbay.com/
|
||
|
||
and then they blathered some more:
|
||
> Compare the speed of Oracle 8 with 8i if you don't
|
||
> believe me. The stability is also much worse. Ever
|
||
> see a JVM on any platform that didn't crash if you
|
||
> looked at it cockeyed? Ever really trust the garbage
|
||
> collection? I don't. I've found a memory leak in IBM
|
||
> developed java libraries. Gotta restart that app
|
||
> every once in a while to reclaim system resources it
|
||
> gobbled up and never gave back.
|
||
|
||
some mention was made regarding the performance of
|
||
the oracle8i application server. well, oracle has
|
||
realized that their performance was sub-optimal and
|
||
rectified the situation by licensing the orion server
|
||
for oracle9i. while money and politics most certainly
|
||
play a part in any licensing arrangement they must
|
||
also realize that making customers happy through the
|
||
performance of their applications will lead to more
|
||
money. the link to the press release is below.
|
||
|
||
http://www.oracle.com/corporate/press/index.html?759347.html
|
||
|
||
all of that being said...
|
||
|
||
i don't think that the person that started this thread
|
||
did anything wrong by making the request they did. that
|
||
is what opensource is all about - contributions, even
|
||
just contributions of ideas, are welcomed. even so, there
|
||
are several options that i see for getting it implemented:
|
||
1) its an open source project so implement it yourself.
|
||
while i have never worked on modifying the code base
|
||
i am extremely confident that the current developers
|
||
will be more than willing to give you advice and
|
||
pointers.
|
||
2) if #1 is not feasible either because you don't have
|
||
the time, the inclination, or the experience then
|
||
you can write a contract that will pay one of the
|
||
postgres developers to implement it for you.
|
||
3) if that isn't feasible you can try to get a volunteer
|
||
to do so.
|
||
4) if that isn't feasible then you either have to live
|
||
with what you have, go elsewhere, or be quiet.
|
||
|
||
to the person that blathered thusly in response to the
|
||
request for java:
|
||
> Merits of the language notwithstanding, I'd rather
|
||
> not have a buggy, still under development
|
||
> (depreciating everything under the sun with every
|
||
> new iteration) JVM parasite in my DB.
|
||
|
||
informed and intelligent debate is good. given that i
|
||
believe such to be true, i would request that you
|
||
refrain from blathering such vitriol and uninformed
|
||
nonsense. not only is it for the good of the people
|
||
on the list who don't want to hear it but it will
|
||
also do you good by not telling everyone out there
|
||
that you are a very silly person that doesn't deal
|
||
with logic and/or facts.
|
||
|
||
to everyone else on the list - if we all contribute
|
||
a penny we could probably buy enough burritos from
|
||
7-11 to make sure that his hands and mouth are busy
|
||
for a good long while.
|
||
|
||
rjsjr
|
||
|
||
|
||
|
||
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|
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TIP 3: if posting/reading through Usenet, please send an appropriate
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|
||
From pgsql-general-owner+M14597@postgresql.org Fri Aug 31 23:23:15 2001
|
||
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Fri, 31 Aug 2001 22:35:23 -0400 (EDT)
|
||
Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 22:35:23 -0400 (EDT)
|
||
From: Alex Pilosov <alex@pilosoft.com>
|
||
To: Alex Knight <knight@phunc.com>
|
||
cc: pgsql-general@postgresql.org
|
||
Subject: [WAY OT] Re: [GENERAL] PL/java?
|
||
In-Reply-To: <MAEFKNDLAHNIFMAIEGHJCEKJCDAA.knight@phunc.com>
|
||
Message-ID: <Pine.BSO.4.10.10108312220140.19501-100000@spider.pilosoft.com>
|
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|
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|
||
Status: OR
|
||
|
||
On Fri, 31 Aug 2001, Alex Knight wrote:
|
||
|
||
> It is generally wiser to split the webservers from the appservers;
|
||
> that will save on memory footprints from each respectively. That alone
|
||
> can give each machine a specific task to accomplish... generally more
|
||
> efficiently. But I would assume you know this.
|
||
|
||
And it is wise to split database from middleware, and not try to saddle
|
||
PostgreSQL with requirements to support Java in-process. _IF_ java stored
|
||
procedures are implemented, it should be via something like a) oracle's
|
||
extproc (start a separate process to load the function) b) some of perl
|
||
java tools (they start a jdk in a separate process and communicate with it
|
||
using RMI).
|
||
|
||
|
||
Problem with java-pgsql integration is the threads model: Java really
|
||
really wants threads. Postgres doesn't do threads. So if most simple way
|
||
is attempted, you will incur overhead of starting up JVM for each backend
|
||
(a few seconds as opposed to milliseconds) and non-shared 30M of memory
|
||
per backend (as opposed to currently <3 megs of non-shared memory per
|
||
backend).
|
||
|
||
> Using something like WebLogic, WebSphere, or Orion would be a wiser
|
||
> approach. For the company with the low budget, Orion is only something
|
||
> like $2000, and it has full J2EE support, including EJBs, etc. Try
|
||
> finding that kind of richness in Tomcat. Also, Orion takes up only
|
||
> 40-50mb at start, which is really fairly reasonable; ram is cheap
|
||
> anyways... a server that has to perform complicated algorithms to a
|
||
> large audience but has hardly any ram shouldn't be on the internet
|
||
> anyways; unless it can handle it.
|
||
|
||
_ONLY_ 40-50Mb?! Egads, I'm hard pressed to find any other piece of
|
||
(non-windows, non-java) software that takes 40-50M just to start up!
|
||
|
||
I worked with both CrapLogic and CrapSphere. Weblogic takes 20-60 seconds
|
||
to start up on P3-800, that, IMHO, is ridiculous.
|
||
|
||
It is not only issue of memory, its easy to throw memory at the problem,
|
||
its an issue of _incremental use_ of memory. As you scale
|
||
|
||
> I feel that you don't really have enough experience with _java_ to
|
||
> judge it accurately. Frankly, the JVM is quite small nowadays,
|
||
> considering the amount of base classes that sit in memory much of the
|
||
> time. And the JVMs are really much faster these days. Java is still
|
||
> slow for 2 reasons: 1) Developers who don't optimize their code as
|
||
> they write it, 2) Bytecode interpretation is and probably never will
|
||
> be as fast as something like C/C++. But it certainly isn't the JVM
|
||
> itself slowing it down because of some "extended memory" that it lives
|
||
> in. Any reasonable server should have absolutely no problems if the
|
||
> jvm is implemented _properly_ (which many packages do not do), etc. If
|
||
> you're comparing Java to perl, yes, certainly it's a bit more of a
|
||
> beast, but perl quite simply can't keep up in speed and feature
|
||
> richness (when was the last time you secured your perl code in a
|
||
> redistributable fashion?)
|
||
_WHY_ the heck do all base classes need to be in memory all the time? Why
|
||
are they so huge? Libc is _far far_ smaller, and libstdc++ is tiny
|
||
compared to all the java standard library.
|
||
|
||
You know what the answer to it is: Because they are ALL written in java,
|
||
as opposed to more sane languages like perl which handcode their "standard
|
||
libraries" or the most important pieces of them in C.
|
||
|
||
Perl is far faster than java in about any practical application I did.
|
||
Again, the issue is not speed of JVM versus PP (perl virtual machine), if
|
||
you did number crunching in perl and java, they would probably be at par.
|
||
Its an issue of standard libraries. They are _horribly slow_. Perl's
|
||
hashtables are a very nice piece of optimized C code. Java's hashtables
|
||
are written in Java. Need I say more? Java's AWT was a dog. Swing is a dog
|
||
and a half, because they reimplemented all the things that are commonly
|
||
done in C in Java.
|
||
|
||
> The only mistake the developers can make is poorly implementing the
|
||
> jvm, but most certainly not Java itself. I've been working on
|
||
> architecting and building enterprise level sites and applications for
|
||
> nearly 8 years now, and I've seen too many people try to implement
|
||
> perl cgi websites for enterprise sites and watch them choke and crawl
|
||
> to their knees because of poor system resource handling, lack of
|
||
> scalability, etc... I most certainly don't consider a single webserver
|
||
> with an appserver and tiny database to be enterprise level either (not
|
||
> that I'm inferring you said it was).
|
||
You cannot compare a perl CGI script and a J2EE server. Its like comparing
|
||
a webserver you wrote yourself vs apache! There are application servers
|
||
(or more closely, code libraries) for perl that match what J2EE provides.
|
||
|
||
--
|
||
Alex Pilosov | http://www.acedsl.com/home.html
|
||
CTO - Acecape, Inc. | AceDSL:The best ADSL in the world
|
||
325 W 38 St. Suite 1005 | (Stealth Marketing Works! :)
|
||
New York, NY 10018 |
|
||
|
||
|
||
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|
||
TIP 3: if posting/reading through Usenet, please send an appropriate
|
||
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|
||
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|
||
|
||
From pgsql-hackers-owner+M14652=candle.pha.pa.us=pgman@postgresql.org Thu Oct 25 22:24:44 2001
|
||
Return-path: <pgsql-hackers-owner+M14652=candle.pha.pa.us=pgman@postgresql.org>
|
||
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|
||
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|
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|
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|
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|
||
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|
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|
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|
||
Fri, 26 Oct 2001 03:05:49 +0200
|
||
To: tweekie <None@news.tht.net>
|
||
cc: pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org
|
||
Subject: Re: [HACKERS] java virtual machine
|
||
References: <3bd825e2_1@Usenet.com>
|
||
From: Gunnar =?iso-8859-1?q?R=F8nning?= <gunnar@polygnosis.com>
|
||
Date: 26 Oct 2001 03:05:49 +0200
|
||
In-Reply-To: <3bd825e2_1@Usenet.com>
|
||
Message-ID: <m28zdzmcr6.fsf@smaug.polygnosis.com>
|
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|
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|
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|
||
|
||
* tweekie <None@news.tht.net> wrote:
|
||
|
|
||
| I asked this question a while back but got no response - is there any way of
|
||
| creating a Java stored procedure in a postgres database ? I can see that
|
||
| there is a built-in PL/sql type of environment and a python one but it would
|
||
| be nice if I could migrate Java stored procedures in an Oracle database into
|
||
| postgres.
|
||
|
|
||
| Any comments?
|
||
|
||
|
||
It would rock ;-) An Hungarian guy just sent a mail indicating that he
|
||
had a first prototype version of something with Kaffe up and running.
|
||
But I believe there is a lot of issues to be solved, especially
|
||
threading issues...
|
||
|
||
--
|
||
Gunnar R<>nning - gunnar@polygnosis.com
|
||
Senior Consultant, Polygnosis AS, http://www.polygnosis.com/
|
||
|
||
---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
|
||
TIP 5: Have you checked our extensive FAQ?
|
||
|
||
http://www.postgresql.org/users-lounge/docs/faq.html
|
||
|
||
From pgsql-general-owner+M18147=candle.pha.pa.us=pgman@postgresql.org Mon Dec 3 13:53:24 2001
|
||
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|
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|
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Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 10:14:12 +0100
|
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From: Laszlo Hornyak <hornyakl@freemail.hu>
|
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|
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|
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|
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To: pgsql-general@postgresql.org
|
||
Subject: [GENERAL] java stored procedures
|
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|
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Status: OR
|
||
|
||
Hi!
|
||
|
||
A few months ago I asked if anyone started working on PL/JAVA, the
|
||
ansver was no. Now I started to write a java stored procedure language
|
||
and environment for PostgreSQL. Some code is already working, and it is
|
||
geting interresting. So, I would like to ask you to write me your ideas,
|
||
suggestions, etc for this environment.
|
||
The source code will be available under GPL when it is worth for
|
||
distributing it (this will take for a while).
|
||
thanks.
|
||
|
||
Laszlo Hornyak
|
||
|
||
|
||
---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
|
||
TIP 4: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster
|
||
|
||
From pgsql-general-owner+M18182=candle.pha.pa.us=pgman@postgresql.org Tue Dec 4 13:14:09 2001
|
||
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|
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|
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To: Barry Lind <barry@xythos.com>
|
||
cc: Laszlo Hornyak <hornyakl@freemail.hu>, pgsql-general@postgresql.org,
|
||
pgsql-jdbc@postgresql.org
|
||
Subject: Re: [GENERAL] java stored procedures
|
||
References: <3C074DE4.9040905@freemail.hu> <3C0BE325.3020809@xythos.com>
|
||
<3C0C937E.9000405@freemail.hu> <3C0CFD82.1030600@xythos.com>
|
||
From: Doug McNaught <doug@wireboard.com>
|
||
Date: 04 Dec 2001 12:58:47 -0500
|
||
In-Reply-To: Barry Lind's message of "Tue, 04 Dec 2001 08:44:50 -0800"
|
||
Message-ID: <m3itbmeujs.fsf@belphigor.mcnaught.org>
|
||
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|
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|
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|
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|
||
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|
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|
||
Status: OR
|
||
|
||
Barry Lind <barry@xythos.com> writes:
|
||
|
||
> Having one jvm that all the postgres backend processes communicate with makes
|
||
> the whole feature much more complicated, but is necessary in my opinion.
|
||
|
||
Agreed. Also, the JVM is a multithreaded app, and running it inside a
|
||
non-threaded program (the backend) might cause problems.
|
||
|
||
> Then the question becomes how does the jvm process interact with the database
|
||
> since they are two different processes. You will need some sort of
|
||
> interprocess communication between the two to execute sql statements. This
|
||
> could be accomplished by using the existing jdbc driver. But the bigest
|
||
> problem here is getting the transaction semantics right. How does a sql
|
||
> statement being run by a java stored procedure get access to the same
|
||
> connection/transaction as the original client? What you don't want happening
|
||
> is that sql issued in a stored java procedure executes in a different
|
||
> transaction as the caller, what would rollback of the stored function call
|
||
> mean in that case?
|
||
|
||
I think you would have to to expose the SPI layer to Java running in a
|
||
separate process, either using an RMI server written in C or a custom
|
||
protocol over a TCP socket (Java of course can't do Unix sockets).
|
||
This raises some thorny issues of authentication and security but I
|
||
don't think they're insurmountable. You could, for example, create a
|
||
cryptographically strong "cookie" in the backend when a Java function
|
||
is called. The cookie would be passed to the Java function when it
|
||
gets invoked, and then must be passed back to the SPI layer in order
|
||
for the latter to accept the call. A bit clunky but should be safe as
|
||
far as I can see.
|
||
|
||
The cookie would be needed anyhow, I think, in order for the SPI layer
|
||
to be able to find the transaction that the Java function was
|
||
originally invoked in.
|
||
|
||
You could make the SPI layer stuff look like a normal JDBC driver to
|
||
user code--PL/Perl does this kind of thing with the Perl DBI
|
||
interface.
|
||
|
||
-Doug
|
||
--
|
||
Let us cross over the river, and rest under the shade of the trees.
|
||
--T. J. Jackson, 1863
|
||
|
||
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|
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TIP 1: subscribe and unsubscribe commands go to majordomo@postgresql.org
|
||
|
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From pgsql-jdbc-owner+M2545@postgresql.org Tue Dec 4 12:49:03 2001
|
||
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Tue, 4 Dec 2001 08:44:50 -0800
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Message-ID: <3C0CFD82.1030600@xythos.com>
|
||
Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2001 08:44:50 -0800
|
||
From: Barry Lind <barry@xythos.com>
|
||
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:0.9.6) Gecko/20011120
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To: Laszlo Hornyak <hornyakl@freemail.hu>
|
||
cc: pgsql-general@postgresql.org, pgsql-jdbc@postgresql.org
|
||
Subject: Re: [JDBC] [GENERAL] java stored procedures
|
||
References: <3C074DE4.9040905@freemail.hu> <3C0BE325.3020809@xythos.com> <3C0C937E.9000405@freemail.hu>
|
||
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
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Status: OR
|
||
|
||
Laszlo,
|
||
|
||
I think it would help a lot if you could take a little time to write
|
||
down what your planned architecture for a pljava would be. It then
|
||
becomes much easier for myself and probably others reading these lists
|
||
to make suggestions on ways to improve what you are planning (or
|
||
possible problems with your strategy). Without knowing what exactly you
|
||
are thinking of doing it is difficult to comment.
|
||
|
||
But let me try throwing out a few thoughts about how I think this should
|
||
be done.
|
||
|
||
First question is how will the jvm be run? Since postgres is a
|
||
multiprocess implementation (i.e. each connection has a separate process
|
||
on the server) and since java is a multithreaded implementation (i.e.
|
||
one process supporting multiple threads), what should the pljava
|
||
implementation look like? I think there should be a single jvm process
|
||
for the entire db server that each postgresql process connects to
|
||
through sockets/rmi. It will be too expensive to create a new jvm
|
||
process for each postgresql connection (expensive in both terms of
|
||
memory and cpu, since the startup time for the jvm is significant and it
|
||
requires a lot of memory).
|
||
|
||
Having one jvm that all the postgres backend processes communicate with
|
||
makes the whole feature much more complicated, but is necessary in my
|
||
opinion.
|
||
|
||
Then the question becomes how does the jvm process interact with the
|
||
database since they are two different processes. You will need some
|
||
sort of interprocess communication between the two to execute sql
|
||
statements. This could be accomplished by using the existing jdbc
|
||
driver. But the bigest problem here is getting the transaction
|
||
semantics right. How does a sql statement being run by a java stored
|
||
procedure get access to the same connection/transaction as the original
|
||
client? What you don't want happening is that sql issued in a stored
|
||
java procedure executes in a different transaction as the caller, what
|
||
would rollback of the stored function call mean in that case?
|
||
|
||
I am very interested in hearing what your plans are for pl/java. I
|
||
think this is a very difficult project, but one that would be very
|
||
useful and welcome.
|
||
|
||
thanks,
|
||
--Barry
|
||
|
||
|
||
|
||
|
||
Laszlo Hornyak wrote:
|
||
|
||
> Hi!
|
||
>
|
||
> I am such a lame in the licensing area. As much as I know, BSD license
|
||
> is more free than GPL. I think it is too early to think about licensing,
|
||
> but it`s ok, you won :), when it will be ready(or it will seem to get
|
||
> closer to a working thing, currently it looks more like a interresting
|
||
> test), I will ask you if you want to distribute it with Postgres, and if
|
||
> you say yes, the license will be the same as Postgresql`s license.
|
||
> Anyway is this neccessary when it is the part of the distribution?
|
||
> Is this ok for you?
|
||
>
|
||
> thanks,
|
||
> Laszlo Hornyak
|
||
>
|
||
> ps: still waiting for your ideas, suggestions, etc :) I am not memeber
|
||
> of the mailing list, please write me dirrectly!
|
||
>
|
||
> Barry Lind wrote:
|
||
>
|
||
>> Laszlo,
|
||
>>
|
||
>> In my mind it would be more useful if this code was under the same
|
||
>> license as the rest of postgresql. That way it could become part of
|
||
>> the product as opposed to always being a separate component. (Just
|
||
>> like plpgsql, pltcl and the other procedural languages).
|
||
>>
|
||
>> thanks,
|
||
>> --Barry
|
||
>>
|
||
>>
|
||
>
|
||
>
|
||
|
||
|
||
|
||
---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
|
||
TIP 4: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster
|
||
|
||
From pgsql-jdbc-owner+M2555@postgresql.org Thu Dec 6 10:16:31 2001
|
||
Return-path: <pgsql-jdbc-owner+M2555@postgresql.org>
|
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|
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|
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|
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|
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|
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|
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|
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|
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|
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|
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|
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|
||
Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2001 20:18:52 +0100
|
||
From: Laszlo Hornyak <hornyakl@freemail.hu>
|
||
Reply-To: hornyakl@users.sourceforge.net
|
||
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:0.9.4) Gecko/20010913
|
||
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|
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MIME-Version: 1.0
|
||
To: Barry Lind <barry@xythos.com>
|
||
cc: pgsql-general@postgresql.org, pgsql-jdbc@postgresql.org
|
||
Subject: Re: [JDBC] [GENERAL] java stored procedures
|
||
References: <3C074DE4.9040905@freemail.hu> <3C0BE325.3020809@xythos.com> <3C0C937E.9000405@freemail.hu> <3C0CFD82.1030600@xythos.com>
|
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|
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|
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|
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|
||
Status: OR
|
||
|
||
Hi!
|
||
|
||
Barry Lind wrote:
|
||
|
||
> Laszlo,
|
||
>
|
||
> I think it would help a lot if you could take a little time to write
|
||
> down what your planned architecture for a pljava would be. It then
|
||
> becomes much easier for myself and probably others reading these lists
|
||
> to make suggestions on ways to improve what you are planning (or
|
||
> possible problems with your strategy). Without knowing what exactly
|
||
> you are thinking of doing it is difficult to comment.
|
||
|
||
>
|
||
>
|
||
> But let me try throwing out a few thoughts about how I think this
|
||
> should be done.
|
||
>
|
||
> First question is how will the jvm be run? Since postgres is a
|
||
> multiprocess implementation (i.e. each connection has a separate
|
||
> process on the server) and since java is a multithreaded
|
||
> implementation (i.e. one process supporting multiple threads), what
|
||
> should the pljava implementation look like? I think there should be a
|
||
> single jvm process for the entire db server that each postgresql
|
||
> process connects to through sockets/rmi. It will be too expensive to
|
||
> create a new jvm process for each postgresql connection (expensive in
|
||
> both terms of memory and cpu, since the startup time for the jvm is
|
||
> significant and it requires a lot of memory).
|
||
|
||
I absolutely agree. OK, it`s done.
|
||
|
||
So, a late-night-brainstorming here:
|
||
What I would like to see in PL/JAVA is the object oriented features,
|
||
that makes postgresql nice. Creating a new table creates a new class in
|
||
the java side too. Instantiating an object of the newly created class
|
||
inserts a row into the table. In postgresql tables can be inherited, and
|
||
this could be easyly done by pl/java too. I think this would look nice.
|
||
But this is not the main feature. Why I would like to see a nice java
|
||
procedural language inside postgres is java`s advanced communication
|
||
features (I mean CORBA, jdbc, other protocols). This is the sugar in the
|
||
caffe.
|
||
|
||
I am very far from features like this.
|
||
PL/JAVA now:
|
||
-there is a separate process running java (kaffe). this process creates
|
||
a sys v message queue, that holds requests. almost forgot, a shared
|
||
memory segment too. I didn`t find better way to tell postgres the
|
||
informations about the java process.
|
||
-the java request_handler function on the server side attaches to the
|
||
shared memory, reads the key of the message queue., attaches to it,
|
||
sends the data of the function, and a signal for the pl/java. after, it
|
||
is waiting for a signal from the java thread.
|
||
-when java thread receives the signal, it reads the message(s) from the
|
||
queue, and starts some actions. When done it tells postgres with a
|
||
signal that it is ready, and it can come for its results. This will be
|
||
rewritten see below problems.
|
||
-And postgres is runing, while java is waiting for postgres to say
|
||
something.
|
||
|
||
Threading on the java process side is not done yet, ok, it is not that
|
||
hard, I will write it, if it will be realy neccessary.
|
||
|
||
The problems, for now:
|
||
I had a very simple system, that passed a very limited scale of argument
|
||
types, with a very limited quantity of parameters (int, varchar, bool).
|
||
Postgres has limits for the argument count too, but not for types. It
|
||
had too much limits, so I am working (or to tell the truth now only
|
||
thinking) on a new type handling that fits the felxibility of
|
||
Postgresql`s type flexibility. For this I will have to learn a lot about
|
||
Postgres`s type system. This will be my program this weekend. :)
|
||
|
||
thanks,
|
||
Laszlo Hornyak
|
||
|
||
|
||
---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
|
||
TIP 5: Have you checked our extensive FAQ?
|
||
|
||
http://www.postgresql.org/users-lounge/docs/faq.html
|
||
|
||
From pgsql-jdbc-owner+M2549@postgresql.org Tue Dec 4 22:34:48 2001
|
||
Return-path: <pgsql-jdbc-owner+M2549@postgresql.org>
|
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|
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|
||
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|
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|
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|
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|
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|
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|
||
Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2001 17:34:21 -0800
|
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From: Barry Lind <barry@xythos.com>
|
||
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|
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|
||
To: hornyakl@users.sourceforge.net
|
||
cc: pgsql-general@postgresql.org, pgsql-jdbc@postgresql.org
|
||
Subject: Re: [JDBC] [GENERAL] java stored procedures
|
||
References: <3C074DE4.9040905@freemail.hu> <3C0BE325.3020809@xythos.com> <3C0C937E.9000405@freemail.hu> <3C0CFD82.1030600@xythos.com> <3C0D219C.1090804@freemail.hu>
|
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|
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|
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|
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|
||
Status: OR
|
||
|
||
Laszlo,
|
||
|
||
|
||
> I am very far from features like this.
|
||
> PL/JAVA now:
|
||
> -there is a separate process running java (kaffe). this process creates
|
||
> a sys v message queue, that holds requests. almost forgot, a shared
|
||
> memory segment too. I didn`t find better way to tell postgres the
|
||
> informations about the java process.
|
||
|
||
|
||
Does the mechanism you are planning support running any JVM? In my
|
||
opionion Kaffe isn't good enough to be widely useful. I think you
|
||
should be able to plugin whatever jvm is best on your platform, which
|
||
will likely be either the Sun or IBM JVMs.
|
||
|
||
Also, can you explain this a little bit more. How does the jvm process
|
||
get started? (I would hope that the postgresql server processes would
|
||
start it when needed, as opposed to requiring that it be started
|
||
separately.) How does the jvm access these shared memory structures?
|
||
Since there aren't any methods in the java API to do such things that I
|
||
am aware of.
|
||
|
||
> -the java request_handler function on the server side attaches to the
|
||
> shared memory, reads the key of the message queue., attaches to it,
|
||
> sends the data of the function, and a signal for the pl/java. after, it
|
||
> is waiting for a signal from the java thread.
|
||
|
||
|
||
I don't understand how you do this in java? I must not be understanding
|
||
something correctly here.
|
||
|
||
> -when java thread receives the signal, it reads the message(s) from the
|
||
> queue, and starts some actions. When done it tells postgres with a
|
||
> signal that it is ready, and it can come for its results. This will be
|
||
> rewritten see below problems.
|
||
|
||
|
||
Are signals the best way to accomplish this?
|
||
|
||
> -And postgres is runing, while java is waiting for postgres to say
|
||
> something.
|
||
|
||
|
||
But in reality if the postgres process is executing a stored function it
|
||
needs to wait for the result of that function call before continuing
|
||
doesn't it?
|
||
|
||
>
|
||
> Threading on the java process side is not done yet, ok, it is not that
|
||
> hard, I will write it, if it will be realy neccessary.
|
||
|
||
|
||
Agreed, this is important.
|
||
|
||
>
|
||
> The problems, for now:
|
||
> I had a very simple system, that passed a very limited scale of argument
|
||
> types, with a very limited quantity of parameters (int, varchar, bool).
|
||
> Postgres has limits for the argument count too, but not for types. It
|
||
> had too much limits, so I am working (or to tell the truth now only
|
||
> thinking) on a new type handling that fits the felxibility of
|
||
> Postgresql`s type flexibility. For this I will have to learn a lot about
|
||
> Postgres`s type system. This will be my program this weekend. :)
|
||
|
||
|
||
Shouldn't this code use all or most of the logic found in the FE/BE
|
||
protocol? Why invent and code another mechanism to transfer data when
|
||
one already exists. (I will admit that the current FE/BE mechanism
|
||
isn't the ideal choice, but it seems easier to reuse what exists for now
|
||
and improve on it later).
|
||
|
||
|
||
>
|
||
> thanks,
|
||
> Laszlo Hornyak
|
||
>
|
||
|
||
You didn't mention how you plan to deal with the transaction symantics.
|
||
So what happens when the pl/java function calls through jdbc back to
|
||
the server to insert some data? That should happen in the same
|
||
transaction as the caller correct?
|
||
|
||
thanks,
|
||
--Barry
|
||
|
||
|
||
---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
|
||
TIP 1: subscribe and unsubscribe commands go to majordomo@postgresql.org
|
||
|
||
From pgsql-jdbc-owner+M2559@postgresql.org Thu Dec 6 10:18:55 2001
|
||
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|
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Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2001 10:06:10 +0100
|
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From: Laszlo Hornyak <hornyakl@freemail.hu>
|
||
Reply-To: hornyakl@users.sourceforge.net
|
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|
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cc: hornyakl@users.sourceforge.net, pgsql-general@postgresql.org,
|
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pgsql-jdbc@postgresql.org
|
||
Subject: Re: [JDBC] [GENERAL] java stored procedures
|
||
References: <3C074DE4.9040905@freemail.hu> <3C0BE325.3020809@xythos.com> <3C0C937E.9000405@freemail.hu> <3C0CFD82.1030600@xythos.com> <3C0D219C.1090804@freemail.hu> <3C0D799D.4010808@xythos.com>
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||
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|
||
Precedence: bulk
|
||
Sender: pgsql-jdbc-owner@postgresql.org
|
||
Status: OR
|
||
|
||
Hi!
|
||
|
||
Barry Lind wrote:
|
||
|
||
> Does the mechanism you are planning support running any JVM? In my
|
||
> opionion Kaffe isn't good enough to be widely useful. I think you
|
||
> should be able to plugin whatever jvm is best on your platform, which
|
||
> will likely be either the Sun or IBM JVMs.
|
||
|
||
Ok, I also had problems with caffe, but it may work. I like it becouse
|
||
it is small (the source is about 6M). As much as I know Java VM`s has a
|
||
somewhat standard native interface called JNI. I use this to start the
|
||
VM, and communicate with it. If you think I should change I will do it,
|
||
but it may take a long time to get the new VM. For then I have to run kaffe.
|
||
|
||
> Also, can you explain this a little bit more. How does the jvm
|
||
> process get started? (I would hope that the postgresql server
|
||
> processes would start it when needed, as opposed to requiring that it
|
||
> be started separately.) How does the jvm access these shared memory
|
||
> structures? Since there aren't any methods in the java API to do such
|
||
> things that I am aware of.
|
||
|
||
JVM does not. 'the java process' does with simple posix calls. I use
|
||
debian potatoe, on any other posix system it should work, on any other
|
||
somewhat posix compatible system it may work, I am not sure...
|
||
|
||
>
|
||
> I don't understand how you do this in java? I must not be
|
||
> understanding something correctly here.
|
||
|
||
My failure.
|
||
The 'java request_handler' is not a java function, it is the C
|
||
call_handler in the Postgres side, that is started when a function of
|
||
language 'pljava' is called.
|
||
I made some failure in my previous mail. At home I named the pl/java
|
||
language pl/pizza (something that is not caffe, but well known enough
|
||
:). The application has two running binaries:
|
||
-pizza (which was called 'java process' last time) This is a small C
|
||
program that uses JNI to start VM and call java methods.
|
||
-plpizza.so the shared object that contains the call_handler function.
|
||
|
||
|
||
>
|
||
>
|
||
>> -when java thread receives the signal, it reads the message(s) from
|
||
>> the queue, and starts some actions. When done it tells postgres with
|
||
>> a signal that it is ready, and it can come for its results. This will
|
||
>> be rewritten see below problems.
|
||
>
|
||
>
|
||
>
|
||
> Are signals the best way to accomplish this?
|
||
|
||
I don`t know if it is the best, it is the only way I know :)
|
||
Do you know any other ways?
|
||
|
||
>
|
||
>
|
||
>> -And postgres is runing, while java is waiting for postgres to say
|
||
>> something.
|
||
>
|
||
> But in reality if the postgres process is executing a stored function
|
||
> it needs to wait for the result of that function call before
|
||
> continuing doesn't it?
|
||
|
||
Surely, this is done. How could Postgres tell the result anyway ? :)
|
||
|
||
>
|
||
>>
|
||
>> Threading on the java process side is not done yet, ok, it is not
|
||
>> that hard, I will write it, if it will be realy neccessary.
|
||
>
|
||
> Agreed, this is important.
|
||
>
|
||
> Shouldn't this code use all or most of the logic found in the FE/BE
|
||
> protocol? Why invent and code another mechanism to transfer data when
|
||
> one already exists. (I will admit that the current FE/BE mechanism
|
||
> isn't the ideal choice, but it seems easier to reuse what exists for
|
||
> now and improve on it later).
|
||
|
||
Well, I am relatively new to Postgres, and I don`t know these protocols.
|
||
In the weekend I will start to learn it, and in Sunday or Monday I maybe
|
||
I will understand it, if not, next weekend..
|
||
|
||
>
|
||
> You didn't mention how you plan to deal with the transaction
|
||
> symantics. So what happens when the pl/java function calls through
|
||
> jdbc back to the server to insert some data? That should happen in
|
||
> the same transaction as the caller correct?
|
||
|
||
I don`t think this will be a problem, I have ideas for this. Idea mean:
|
||
I know how I will start it, it may be good, or it may be fataly stupid
|
||
idea, it will turn out when I tried it. Simply: The same way plpizza
|
||
tells pizza the request, pizza can talk back to plpizza. This is planed
|
||
to work with similar mechanism I described last time (shm+signals).
|
||
|
||
Monday I will try to send a little pieces of code to make thing clear, ok?
|
||
|
||
thanks,
|
||
Laszlo Hornyak
|
||
|
||
|
||
---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
|
||
TIP 1: subscribe and unsubscribe commands go to majordomo@postgresql.org
|
||
|
||
From pgsql-jdbc-owner+M2567@postgresql.org Thu Dec 6 12:05:50 2001
|
||
Return-path: <pgsql-jdbc-owner+M2567@postgresql.org>
|
||
Received: from west.navpoint.com (west.navpoint.com [207.106.42.13])
|
||
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|
||
for <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>; Thu, 6 Dec 2001 12:05:49 -0500 (EST)
|
||
Received: from rs.postgresql.org (server1.pgsql.org [64.39.15.238] (may be forged))
|
||
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|
||
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|
||
Received: from postgresql.org (postgresql.org [64.49.215.8])
|
||
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|
||
Thu, 6 Dec 2001 11:01:13 -0600 (CST)
|
||
(envelope-from pgsql-jdbc-owner+M2567@postgresql.org)
|
||
Received: from barry.xythos.com (h-64-105-36-191.SNVACAID.covad.net [64.105.36.191])
|
||
by postgresql.org (8.11.3/8.11.4) with ESMTP id fB6Gtsm73872;
|
||
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|
||
(envelope-from barry@xythos.com)
|
||
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|
||
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|
||
Wed, 5 Dec 2001 09:32:19 -0800
|
||
Message-ID: <3C0E5A23.7060701@xythos.com>
|
||
Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2001 09:32:19 -0800
|
||
From: Barry Lind <barry@xythos.com>
|
||
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:0.9.6) Gecko/20011120
|
||
X-Accept-Language: en-us
|
||
MIME-Version: 1.0
|
||
To: hornyakl@users.sourceforge.net
|
||
cc: pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org, pgsql-jdbc@postgresql.org
|
||
Subject: Re: [JDBC] [GENERAL] java stored procedures
|
||
References: <3C074DE4.9040905@freemail.hu> <3C0BE325.3020809@xythos.com> <3C0C937E.9000405@freemail.hu> <3C0CFD82.1030600@xythos.com> <3C0D219C.1090804@freemail.hu> <3C0D799D.4010808@xythos.com> <3C0DE382.1050400@freemail.hu>
|
||
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
|
||
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
|
||
Precedence: bulk
|
||
Sender: pgsql-jdbc-owner@postgresql.org
|
||
Status: OR
|
||
|
||
Laszlo,
|
||
|
||
I have cc'ed the hackers mail list since that group of developers is
|
||
probably better able than I to make suggestions on the best interprocess
|
||
communication mechanism to use for this. See
|
||
http://archives2.us.postgresql.org/pgsql-general/2001-12/msg00092.php
|
||
for background on this thread.
|
||
|
||
I also stopped cc'ing the general list, since this is getting too
|
||
detailed for most of the members on that list.
|
||
|
||
Now to your mail:
|
||
|
||
Laszlo Hornyak wrote:
|
||
|
||
> Hi!
|
||
>
|
||
> Barry Lind wrote:
|
||
>
|
||
>> Does the mechanism you are planning support running any JVM? In my
|
||
>> opionion Kaffe isn't good enough to be widely useful. I think you
|
||
>> should be able to plugin whatever jvm is best on your platform, which
|
||
>> will likely be either the Sun or IBM JVMs.
|
||
>
|
||
>
|
||
> Ok, I also had problems with caffe, but it may work. I like it becouse
|
||
> it is small (the source is about 6M). As much as I know Java VM`s has a
|
||
> somewhat standard native interface called JNI. I use this to start the
|
||
> VM, and communicate with it. If you think I should change I will do it,
|
||
> but it may take a long time to get the new VM. For then I have to run
|
||
> kaffe.
|
||
>
|
||
|
||
|
||
This seems like a reasonable approach and should work across different
|
||
JVMs. It would probably be a good experiment to try this with the Sun
|
||
or IBM jvm at some point to verify. What I was afraid of was that you
|
||
were hacking the Kaffe code to perform the integration which would limit
|
||
this solution to only using Kaffe.
|
||
|
||
|
||
>> Also, can you explain this a little bit more. How does the jvm
|
||
>> process get started? (I would hope that the postgresql server
|
||
>> processes would start it when needed, as opposed to requiring that it
|
||
>> be started separately.) How does the jvm access these shared memory
|
||
>> structures? Since there aren't any methods in the java API to do such
|
||
>> things that I am aware of.
|
||
>
|
||
>
|
||
> JVM does not. 'the java process' does with simple posix calls. I use
|
||
> debian potatoe, on any other posix system it should work, on any other
|
||
> somewhat posix compatible system it may work, I am not sure...
|
||
>
|
||
>>
|
||
>> I don't understand how you do this in java? I must not be
|
||
>> understanding something correctly here.
|
||
>
|
||
>
|
||
> My failure.
|
||
> The 'java request_handler' is not a java function, it is the C
|
||
> call_handler in the Postgres side, that is started when a function of
|
||
> language 'pljava' is called.
|
||
> I made some failure in my previous mail. At home I named the pl/java
|
||
> language pl/pizza (something that is not caffe, but well known enough
|
||
> :). The application has two running binaries:
|
||
> -pizza (which was called 'java process' last time) This is a small C
|
||
> program that uses JNI to start VM and call java methods.
|
||
> -plpizza.so the shared object that contains the call_handler function.
|
||
>
|
||
|
||
|
||
Just a suggestion: PL/J might be a good name, since as you probably
|
||
know it can't be called pl/java because of the trademark restrictions on
|
||
the word 'java'.
|
||
|
||
I am a little concerned about the stability and complexity of having
|
||
this '-pizza' program be responsible for handling the calls on the java
|
||
side. My concern is that this will need to be a multithreaded program
|
||
since multiple backends will concurrently be needing to interact with
|
||
multiple java threads through this one program. It might be simpler if
|
||
each postgres process directly communicated to a java thread via a tcpip
|
||
socket. Then the "-pizza" program would only need to be responsible for
|
||
starting up the jvm and creating java threads and sockets for a postgres
|
||
process (it would perform a similar role to postmaster for postgres
|
||
client connections).
|
||
|
||
|
||
>
|
||
>>
|
||
>>
|
||
>>> -when java thread receives the signal, it reads the message(s) from
|
||
>>> the queue, and starts some actions. When done it tells postgres with
|
||
>>> a signal that it is ready, and it can come for its results. This will
|
||
>>> be rewritten see below problems.
|
||
>>
|
||
>>
|
||
>>
|
||
>>
|
||
>> Are signals the best way to accomplish this?
|
||
>
|
||
>
|
||
> I don`t know if it is the best, it is the only way I know :)
|
||
> Do you know any other ways?
|
||
>
|
||
|
||
|
||
I don't know, but hopefully someone on the hackers list will chip in
|
||
here with a comment.
|
||
|
||
|
||
>>
|
||
>>>
|
||
>>> Threading on the java process side is not done yet, ok, it is not
|
||
>>> that hard, I will write it, if it will be realy neccessary.
|
||
>>
|
||
>>
|
||
>> Agreed, this is important.
|
||
>>
|
||
>> Shouldn't this code use all or most of the logic found in the FE/BE
|
||
>> protocol? Why invent and code another mechanism to transfer data when
|
||
>> one already exists. (I will admit that the current FE/BE mechanism
|
||
>> isn't the ideal choice, but it seems easier to reuse what exists for
|
||
>> now and improve on it later).
|
||
>
|
||
>
|
||
> Well, I am relatively new to Postgres, and I don`t know these protocols.
|
||
> In the weekend I will start to learn it, and in Sunday or Monday I maybe
|
||
> I will understand it, if not, next weekend..
|
||
>
|
||
>>
|
||
>> You didn't mention how you plan to deal with the transaction
|
||
>> symantics. So what happens when the pl/java function calls through
|
||
>> jdbc back to the server to insert some data? That should happen in
|
||
>> the same transaction as the caller correct?
|
||
>
|
||
>
|
||
> I don`t think this will be a problem, I have ideas for this. Idea mean:
|
||
> I know how I will start it, it may be good, or it may be fataly stupid
|
||
> idea, it will turn out when I tried it. Simply: The same way plpizza
|
||
> tells pizza the request, pizza can talk back to plpizza. This is planed
|
||
> to work with similar mechanism I described last time (shm+signals).
|
||
>
|
||
|
||
|
||
OK, so the same backend process that called the function gets messaged
|
||
to process the sql. This should work. However it means you will need a
|
||
special version of the jdbc driver that uses this shm+signals
|
||
communication mechanism instead of what the current jdbc driver does.
|
||
This is something I would be happy to help you with.
|
||
|
||
|
||
|
||
---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
|
||
TIP 5: Have you checked our extensive FAQ?
|
||
|
||
http://www.postgresql.org/users-lounge/docs/faq.html
|
||
|
||
From pgsql-hackers-owner+M16317=candle.pha.pa.us=pgman@postgresql.org Thu Dec 6 10:11:27 2001
|
||
Return-path: <pgsql-hackers-owner+M16317=candle.pha.pa.us=pgman@postgresql.org>
|
||
Received: from west.navpoint.com (west.navpoint.com [207.106.42.13])
|
||
by candle.pha.pa.us (8.11.6/8.10.1) with ESMTP id fB6FBQZ28795
|
||
for <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>; Thu, 6 Dec 2001 10:11:26 -0500 (EST)
|
||
Received: from rs.postgresql.org (server1.pgsql.org [64.39.15.238] (may be forged))
|
||
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|
||
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|
||
Received: from postgresql.org (postgresql.org [64.49.215.8])
|
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|
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|
||
(envelope-from pgsql-hackers-owner+M16317=candle.pha.pa.us=pgman@postgresql.org)
|
||
Received: from tiger.tigrasoft (fw.tigrasoft.hu [195.70.42.161])
|
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by postgresql.org (8.11.3/8.11.4) with ESMTP id fB5JWMm92521;
|
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Wed, 5 Dec 2001 14:32:26 -0500 (EST)
|
||
(envelope-from hornyakl@freemail.hu)
|
||
Received: from freemail.hu ([192.168.0.200])
|
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by tiger.tigrasoft (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id UAA20333;
|
||
Wed, 5 Dec 2001 20:30:51 +0100
|
||
X-Authentication-Warning: tiger.tigrasoft: Host [192.168.0.200] claimed to be freemail.hu
|
||
Message-ID: <3C0E77F0.5030904@freemail.hu>
|
||
Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2001 20:39:28 +0100
|
||
From: Laszlo Hornyak <hornyakl@freemail.hu>
|
||
Reply-To: hornyakl@users.sourceforge.net
|
||
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:0.9.4) Gecko/20010913
|
||
X-Accept-Language: hu, en-us
|
||
MIME-Version: 1.0
|
||
To: Barry Lind <barry@xythos.com>, pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org,
|
||
pgsql-jdbc@postgresql.org
|
||
Subject: Re: [HACKERS] [GENERAL] java stored procedures
|
||
References: <3C074DE4.9040905@freemail.hu> <3C0BE325.3020809@xythos.com> <3C0C937E.9000405@freemail.hu> <3C0CFD82.1030600@xythos.com> <3C0D219C.1090804@freemail.hu> <3C0D799D.4010808@xythos.com> <3C0DE382.1050400@freemail.hu> <3C0E5A23.7060701@xythos.com>
|
||
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
|
||
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
|
||
Precedence: bulk
|
||
Sender: pgsql-hackers-owner@postgresql.org
|
||
Status: OR
|
||
|
||
Barry Lind wrote:
|
||
|
||
>
|
||
> I also stopped cc'ing the general list, since this is getting too
|
||
> detailed for most of the members on that list.
|
||
|
||
Ok.
|
||
|
||
> Now to your mail:
|
||
>
|
||
> This seems like a reasonable approach and should work across different
|
||
> JVMs. It would probably be a good experiment to try this with the Sun
|
||
> or IBM jvm at some point to verify. What I was afraid of was that you
|
||
> were hacking the Kaffe code to perform the integration which would
|
||
> limit this solution to only using Kaffe.
|
||
|
||
I am sure they wont work the same way. I think I have a sun jdk 1.3.0-2,
|
||
so I will try to port it soon. The IBM implementation must wait I think
|
||
until january.
|
||
|
||
>
|
||
> Just a suggestion: PL/J might be a good name, since as you probably
|
||
> know it can't be called pl/java because of the trademark restrictions
|
||
> on the word 'java'.
|
||
|
||
Ok, you won, I do not read the licenses. From now it`s name is pl/j.
|
||
Isn`t 'j' too short for the name of the process that runns java? :)
|
||
|
||
>
|
||
> I am a little concerned about the stability and complexity of having
|
||
> this '-pizza' program be responsible for handling the calls on the
|
||
> java side. My concern is that this will need to be a multithreaded
|
||
> program since multiple backends will concurrently be needing to
|
||
> interact with multiple java threads through this one program. It
|
||
> might be simpler if each postgres process directly communicated to a
|
||
> java thread via a tcpip socket. Then the "-pizza" program would only
|
||
> need to be responsible for starting up the jvm and creating java
|
||
> threads and sockets for a postgres process (it would perform a similar
|
||
> role to postmaster for postgres client connections).
|
||
|
||
With good design we can solve stability problems. As much as I know, if
|
||
postmaster dies, the postgres server becomes unavailable, this looks the
|
||
same problem. I do not know if we realy need sockets. Anyway, if 'j'
|
||
dies, we can create a new one, and restart calculations. Some watchdog
|
||
functionality...
|
||
Doing thing with sockets need a lot of rework. It is the best time for
|
||
this, while there is not too much thing done.
|
||
|
||
>>>
|
||
>>>> -when java thread receives the signal, it reads the message(s) from
|
||
>>>> the queue, and starts some actions. When done it tells postgres
|
||
>>>> with a signal that it is ready, and it can come for its results.
|
||
>>>> This will be rewritten see below problems.
|
||
>>>
|
||
>>> Are signals the best way to accomplish this?
|
||
>>
|
||
>> I don`t know if it is the best, it is the only way I know :)
|
||
>> Do you know any other ways?
|
||
>>
|
||
> I don't know, but hopefully someone on the hackers list will chip in
|
||
> here with a comment.
|
||
|
||
After a first developement cycle (if my brain doesn`t burn down), the
|
||
signals can be replaced to a plugable communication interface I think.
|
||
So maybe we can use CORBA, or sockets, or something else. This will take
|
||
a lot of time.
|
||
|
||
> OK, so the same backend process that called the function gets messaged
|
||
> to process the sql. This should work. However it means you will need
|
||
> a special version of the jdbc driver that uses this shm+signals
|
||
> communication mechanism instead of what the current jdbc driver does.
|
||
> This is something I would be happy to help you with.
|
||
|
||
|
||
This is kind of you. :)
|
||
For this, I will have to finish the protocol of communication. I have to
|
||
learn Postgres enough, so I am not sure this will be done this weekend.
|
||
I have ideas, only time is needed to implement them or to recognize the
|
||
failures.
|
||
|
||
Thanks,
|
||
Laszlo Hornyak
|
||
|
||
|
||
|
||
---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
|
||
TIP 4: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster
|
||
|
||
From pgsql-hackers-owner+M16313=candle.pha.pa.us=pgman@postgresql.org Thu Dec 6 10:01:29 2001
|
||
Return-path: <pgsql-hackers-owner+M16313=candle.pha.pa.us=pgman@postgresql.org>
|
||
Received: from west.navpoint.com (west.navpoint.com [207.106.42.13])
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|
||
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|
||
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|
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|
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|
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|
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|
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Message-ID: <3C0F7F6B.2060605@freemail.hu>
|
||
Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 15:23:39 +0100
|
||
From: Laszlo Hornyak <hornyakl@freemail.hu>
|
||
Reply-To: hornyakl@users.sourceforge.net
|
||
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:0.9.4) Gecko/20010913
|
||
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|
||
MIME-Version: 1.0
|
||
To: Gunnar =?ISO-8859-1?Q?R=F8nning?= <gunnar@polygnosis.com>
|
||
cc: Barry Lind <barry@xythos.com>, pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org,
|
||
pgsql-jdbc@postgresql.org
|
||
Subject: Re: [HACKERS] [GENERAL] java stored procedures
|
||
References: <3C074DE4.9040905@freemail.hu> <3C0BE325.3020809@xythos.com> <3C0C937E.9000405@freemail.hu> <3C0CFD82.1030600@xythos.com> <m2zo4wttp1.fsf@smaug.polygnosis.com>
|
||
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
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|
||
Precedence: bulk
|
||
Sender: pgsql-hackers-owner@postgresql.org
|
||
Status: OR
|
||
|
||
Hi!
|
||
|
||
Sorry, I have time only for short ansvers, it is company time :((.
|
||
|
||
Gunnar R<>nning wrote:
|
||
|
||
>* Barry Lind <barry@xythos.com> wrote:
|
||
>|
|
||
>| possible problems with your strategy). Without knowing what exactly
|
||
>| you are thinking of doing it is difficult to comment.
|
||
>
|
||
>Agreed.
|
||
>
|
||
Ok, I will try to bring the code here before Monday, or at least some
|
||
pieces. It is full of hardcoded constants from my developement
|
||
environment. :(
|
||
|
||
|
||
>
|
||
>| I am very interested in hearing what your plans are for pl/java. I
|
||
>| think this is a very difficult project, but one that would be very
|
||
>| useful and welcome.
|
||
>
|
||
>I would very much like to hear about the plans myself.
|
||
>
|
||
I do not see so big difficulities yet, am I so lame? It won`t be easy,
|
||
realy, we should keep it simple, at least becouse of me.
|
||
|
||
|
||
thanks,
|
||
Laszlo Hornyak
|
||
|
||
|
||
---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
|
||
TIP 3: if posting/reading through Usenet, please send an appropriate
|
||
subscribe-nomail command to majordomo@postgresql.org so that your
|
||
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|
||
|
||
From pgsql-hackers-owner+M16334=candle.pha.pa.us=pgman@postgresql.org Thu Dec 6 16:11:23 2001
|
||
Return-path: <pgsql-hackers-owner+M16334=candle.pha.pa.us=pgman@postgresql.org>
|
||
Received: from west.navpoint.com (west.navpoint.com [207.106.42.13])
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|
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|
||
Received: from rs.postgresql.org (server1.pgsql.org [64.39.15.238] (may be forged))
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|
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|
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|
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|
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|
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|
||
Message-ID: <3C0FB2CB.90901@tm.ee>
|
||
Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 23:02:51 +0500
|
||
From: Hannu Krosing <hannu@tm.ee>
|
||
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:0.9.4) Gecko/20011019 Netscape6/6.2
|
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|
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MIME-Version: 1.0
|
||
To: hornyakl@users.sourceforge.net
|
||
cc: Gunnar =?ISO-8859-1?Q?R=F8nning?= <gunnar@polygnosis.com>,
|
||
Barry Lind
|
||
<barry@xythos.com>, pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org,
|
||
pgsql-jdbc@postgresql.org
|
||
Subject: Re: [HACKERS] [GENERAL] java stored procedures
|
||
References: <3C074DE4.9040905@freemail.hu> <3C0BE325.3020809@xythos.com> <3C0C937E.9000405@freemail.hu> <3C0CFD82.1030600@xythos.com> <m2zo4wttp1.fsf@smaug.polygnosis.com> <3C0F7F6B.2060605@freemail.hu>
|
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|
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||
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|
||
Sender: pgsql-hackers-owner@postgresql.org
|
||
Status: OR
|
||
|
||
Laszlo Hornyak wrote:
|
||
|
||
>>
|
||
>> | I am very interested in hearing what your plans are for pl/java. I
|
||
>> | think this is a very difficult project, but one that would be very
|
||
>> | useful and welcome.
|
||
>>
|
||
>> I would very much like to hear about the plans myself.
|
||
>
|
||
> I do not see so big difficulities yet, am I so lame? It won`t be easy,
|
||
> realy, we should keep it simple, at least becouse of me.
|
||
|
||
Let me propose a very different approach to PL/J - use gcc-java and
|
||
figure out the problems
|
||
with (dynamic) compiling and dynamic linking.
|
||
|
||
This is an approach somewhat similar to .NET/C# that you first compile
|
||
things and then run instead
|
||
of trying to do both at the same time ;)
|
||
|
||
Oracle /may/ be doing something similar with their java stored
|
||
procedures, as they claim these to be "compiled".
|
||
|
||
-----------------
|
||
Hannu
|
||
|
||
|
||
|
||
---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
|
||
TIP 3: if posting/reading through Usenet, please send an appropriate
|
||
subscribe-nomail command to majordomo@postgresql.org so that your
|
||
message can get through to the mailing list cleanly
|
||
|
||
From pgsql-hackers-owner+M17140@postgresql.org Thu Jan 3 09:13:32 2002
|
||
Return-path: <pgsql-hackers-owner+M17140@postgresql.org>
|
||
Received: from rs.postgresql.org (server1.pgsql.org [64.39.15.238] (may be forged))
|
||
by candle.pha.pa.us (8.11.6/8.10.1) with ESMTP id g03EDVc00444
|
||
for <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>; Thu, 3 Jan 2002 09:13:31 -0500 (EST)
|
||
Received: from postgresql.org (postgresql.org [64.49.215.8])
|
||
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|
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|
||
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|
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|
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|
||
for <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>; Tue, 1 Jan 2002 07:54:39 -0500 (EST)
|
||
(envelope-from hornyakl@freemail.hu)
|
||
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|
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by tiger.tigrasoft (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian 8.9.3-21) with ESMTP id NAA14425;
|
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Tue, 1 Jan 2002 13:54:35 +0100
|
||
X-Authentication-Warning: tiger.tigrasoft: Host [192.168.0.200] claimed to be freemail.hu
|
||
Message-ID: <3C31B3B7.6030703@freemail.hu>
|
||
Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2002 14:03:51 +0100
|
||
From: Laszlo Hornyak <hornyakl@freemail.hu>
|
||
Reply-To: hornyakl@users.sourceforge.net
|
||
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:0.9.4) Gecko/20010913
|
||
X-Accept-Language: hu, en-us
|
||
MIME-Version: 1.0
|
||
To: pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org, ssutjiono@wc-group.com
|
||
Subject: [HACKERS] PL/(pg)J
|
||
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
|
||
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|
||
Precedence: bulk
|
||
Sender: pgsql-hackers-owner@postgresql.org
|
||
Status: OR
|
||
|
||
Happy new year for all!
|
||
|
||
I would like to tell you about the results of my work on pl/j.
|
||
memo: Java and postgres must run in a separate address space. First I
|
||
wanted to use the sys v ipc, which was a bad idea becouse of some
|
||
problems with java VM-s. Many hackers told me about its bad sides, and
|
||
the good sides of the sockets, so I droped the whole code and started a
|
||
new one.
|
||
|
||
I started to write the java side first, which is maybe almost 10% ready :))
|
||
-we have is a communication protocol between the two process. I know
|
||
noone will like it, so there is an API for protocols, so it is plugable.
|
||
The current implementation is receiveing calls,sends exceptions, but
|
||
sending the results is not implemented yet.
|
||
|
||
-the Postgres side is not yet done. It sends function calls without
|
||
arguments, it doesn`t receive sql queries, exceptions or results at all,
|
||
and there is no API for it, it is an uggly hardcoded thing.
|
||
|
||
-there is no JDBC implementation, and I have never written JDBC driver,
|
||
so it may take for a while...
|
||
|
||
But it says "hello world" :))
|
||
|
||
Todo for me:
|
||
|
||
-learn more about postgres, jdbc drivers, etc, etc
|
||
-develop api for the postgres side of the communication.
|
||
|
||
This will take for a good while becouse of other todos but I hope next
|
||
time I can tell you good news.
|
||
|
||
thx,
|
||
Laszlo Hornyak
|
||
|
||
|
||
---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
|
||
TIP 5: Have you checked our extensive FAQ?
|
||
|
||
http://www.postgresql.org/users-lounge/docs/faq.html
|
||
|
||
From pgsql-general-owner+M19758=candle.pha.pa.us=pgman@postgresql.org Wed Jan 23 11:33:11 2002
|
||
Return-path: <pgsql-general-owner+M19758=candle.pha.pa.us=pgman@postgresql.org>
|
||
Received: from server1.pgsql.org (www.postgresql.org [64.49.215.9])
|
||
by candle.pha.pa.us (8.11.6/8.10.1) with SMTP id g0NGXAU13298
|
||
for <pgman@candle.pha.pa.us>; Wed, 23 Jan 2002 11:33:10 -0500 (EST)
|
||
Received: (qmail 89931 invoked by alias); 23 Jan 2002 16:32:58 -0000
|
||
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|
||
by www.postgresql.org with SMTP; 23 Jan 2002 16:32:58 -0000
|
||
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|
||
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|
||
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|
||
(envelope-from barry@xythos.com)
|
||
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|
||
by barry.xythos.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id g0N1sGn24841;
|
||
Tue, 22 Jan 2002 17:54:16 -0800
|
||
Message-ID: <3C4E17C8.8040909@xythos.com>
|
||
Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2002 17:54:16 -0800
|
||
From: Barry Lind <barry@xythos.com>
|
||
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:0.9.7) Gecko/20011221
|
||
X-Accept-Language: en-us
|
||
MIME-Version: 1.0
|
||
To: Nic Ferrier <nferrier@tapsellferrier.co.uk>
|
||
cc: Doug McNaught <doug@wireboard.com>, pgsql-general@postgresql.org
|
||
Subject: Re: [GENERAL] implemention of calls to stored procs.
|
||
References: <87sn8yx6xu.fsf@tf1.tapsellferrier.co.uk> <m3r8oh6i1a.fsf@varsoon.denali.to> <87n0z5yjer.fsf@tf1.tapsellferrier.co.uk>
|
||
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
|
||
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
|
||
Precedence: bulk
|
||
Sender: pgsql-general-owner@postgresql.org
|
||
Status: OR
|
||
|
||
Nic,
|
||
|
||
Check out http://www.rootshell.be/~hornyakl/download
|
||
This has the latest code for pl/pgj. The Java procedure language support
|
||
that Laszlo Hornyak (hornyakl@users.sourceforge.net) has been working on
|
||
for the last month or so.
|
||
|
||
thanks,
|
||
--Barry
|
||
|
||
|
||
Nic Ferrier wrote:
|
||
|
||
> Firstly, thanks for your responses... good to know I was thinking the
|
||
> right thing (and, yes, I was taking the process thing into account,
|
||
> tho' I didn't realise threads weren't used at all).
|
||
>
|
||
>
|
||
> Doug McNaught <doug@wireboard.com> writes:
|
||
>
|
||
>
|
||
>>Nic Ferrier <nferrier@tapsellferrier.co.uk> writes:
|
||
>>
|
||
>>
|
||
>>>I've been looking at the implementation of the procedural language
|
||
>>>support code with a view to writing a java plugin (ie: something to
|
||
>>>allow java classes to be used as stored procs).
|
||
>>>
|
||
>>
|
||
>>Someone else has been talking about this--check the archives from the
|
||
>>last six months.
|
||
>>
|
||
>
|
||
> I couldn't find any reference but the archive searcher is broken right
|
||
> now and a manual search is not very reliable.
|
||
>
|
||
> It's not terribly difficult to crack this actually... I was going to
|
||
> use GCJ as a platform for a base java class that could be used like a
|
||
> quick C stored proc.
|
||
>
|
||
> I envisage having a natively implemented JDBC Connection passed to an
|
||
> init method in such a class.
|
||
>
|
||
>
|
||
> GCJ is perfect for this task because it has a native call interface,
|
||
> CNI, which is a seamless part of the class heirarchy.
|
||
>
|
||
> Once I've got something working I'll drop a line here.
|
||
>
|
||
>
|
||
>
|
||
> Nic
|
||
>
|
||
> ---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
|
||
> TIP 5: Have you checked our extensive FAQ?
|
||
>
|
||
> http://www.postgresql.org/users-lounge/docs/faq.html
|
||
>
|
||
>
|
||
|
||
|
||
|
||
---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
|
||
TIP 3: if posting/reading through Usenet, please send an appropriate
|
||
subscribe-nomail command to majordomo@postgresql.org so that your
|
||
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|
||
|
||
From pgsql-hackers-owner+M31158@postgresql.org Wed Oct 30 14:31:27 2002
|
||
Return-path: <pgsql-hackers-owner+M31158@postgresql.org>
|
||
Received: from postgresql.org (postgresql.org [64.49.215.8])
|
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by candle.pha.pa.us (8.11.6/8.10.1) with ESMTP id g9UJVQU07194
|
||
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|
||
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|
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|
||
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|
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|
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|
||
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|
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|
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|
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|
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|
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for <pgsql-hackers@postgreSQL.org>; Wed, 30 Oct 2002 14:29:57 -0500 (EST)
|
||
To: pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org
|
||
Subject: [HACKERS] PG functions in Java: maybe use gcj?
|
||
Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 14:29:57 -0500
|
||
Message-ID: <819.1036006197@sss.pgh.pa.us>
|
||
From: Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>
|
||
X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS new-20020517
|
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|
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X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS new-20020517
|
||
Status: OR
|
||
|
||
I had an interesting conversation today with Tom Tromey and Andrew Haley
|
||
of Red Hat about how to implement "pljava" for Postgres. Rather than
|
||
futzing with an external JVM, their thought is to use gcj (gcc compiling
|
||
Java). It sounds like this approach would mostly just work, modulo
|
||
needing to use a small amount of C++ code to call the defined APIs for
|
||
gcj.
|
||
|
||
This would not be a perfect solution: gcj isn't yet ported everywhere,
|
||
and it would probably not play nice on machines where the standard C
|
||
library isn't thread-safe. But it seems a lot more within reach than
|
||
the approaches we've discussed in the past.
|
||
|
||
I'm not volunteering to try to do this, but I wanted to toss the idea
|
||
up in the air and see if anyone wants to try it. Tom and Andrew
|
||
indicated they'd be willing to help out with advice etc for anyone
|
||
who wants to take on the project.
|
||
|
||
regards, tom lane
|
||
|
||
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From pgsql-hackers-owner+M31173@postgresql.org Wed Oct 30 22:51:48 2002
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id 1876OC-0006Ty-00; Thu, 31 Oct 2002 03:53:00 +0000
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Message-ID: <3DC0AA42.4000205@xythos.com>
|
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Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 19:57:54 -0800
|
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From: Barry Lind <blind@xythos.com>
|
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To: Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>
|
||
cc: pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org
|
||
Subject: Re: [HACKERS] PG functions in Java: maybe use gcj?
|
||
References: <819.1036006197@sss.pgh.pa.us>
|
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Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
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Status: OR
|
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|
||
I am not sure I follow. Are you suggesting:
|
||
|
||
1) create function takes java source and then calls gcj to compile it
|
||
to native and build a .so from it that would get called at runtime?
|
||
|
||
or
|
||
|
||
2) create function takes java source and just compiles to java .class
|
||
files and the runtime invokes the gcj java interpreter.
|
||
|
||
or I guess you could do both at the same time.
|
||
|
||
In either case I am concerned about licensing issues. gcj is not under
|
||
a BSD style license. Depending on what you need you are either dealing
|
||
with regular GPL, LGPL, or LGPL with a special java exception.
|
||
|
||
I beleive (without giving it too much thought) that doing either 1 or 2
|
||
above would end up linking GPL code into postgres. This can be worked
|
||
around by requiring the the necessary gcj libraries be installed
|
||
separately and detected at configure time (like is done elsewhere). But
|
||
is does (I think) present a problem for commercial products that would
|
||
like to redistribute postgres with pljava.
|
||
|
||
|
||
Another challenge here it that the java code is going to want to use the
|
||
jdbc api when communicating with the database. One difficulty here is
|
||
getting jdbc to be part of the same transaction as the calling java
|
||
function. Such that if the java stored procedure selects or updates
|
||
data it is doing it in the same transaction as the caller of the
|
||
function. Today the jdbc driver only knows how to communicate via the
|
||
FE/BE protocol which will end up creating a new process and transaction.
|
||
The jdbc driver would need to not use the FE/BE protocol but instead
|
||
probably use jni calls.
|
||
|
||
thanks,
|
||
--Barry
|
||
|
||
|
||
Tom Lane wrote:
|
||
> I had an interesting conversation today with Tom Tromey and Andrew Haley
|
||
> of Red Hat about how to implement "pljava" for Postgres. Rather than
|
||
> futzing with an external JVM, their thought is to use gcj (gcc compiling
|
||
> Java). It sounds like this approach would mostly just work, modulo
|
||
> needing to use a small amount of C++ code to call the defined APIs for
|
||
> gcj.
|
||
>
|
||
> This would not be a perfect solution: gcj isn't yet ported everywhere,
|
||
> and it would probably not play nice on machines where the standard C
|
||
> library isn't thread-safe. But it seems a lot more within reach than
|
||
> the approaches we've discussed in the past.
|
||
>
|
||
> I'm not volunteering to try to do this, but I wanted to toss the idea
|
||
> up in the air and see if anyone wants to try it. Tom and Andrew
|
||
> indicated they'd be willing to help out with advice etc for anyone
|
||
> who wants to take on the project.
|
||
>
|
||
> regards, tom lane
|
||
>
|
||
> ---------------------------(end of broadcast)---------------------------
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> TIP 2: you can get off all lists at once with the unregister command
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From pgsql-hackers-owner+M31175@postgresql.org Wed Oct 30 23:10:42 2002
|
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Return-path: <pgsql-hackers-owner+M31175@postgresql.org>
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To: Barry Lind <blind@xythos.com>
|
||
cc: pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org
|
||
Subject: Re: [HACKERS] PG functions in Java: maybe use gcj?
|
||
In-Reply-To: <3DC0AA42.4000205@xythos.com>
|
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References: <819.1036006197@sss.pgh.pa.us> <3DC0AA42.4000205@xythos.com>
|
||
Comments: In-reply-to Barry Lind <blind@xythos.com>
|
||
message dated "Wed, 30 Oct 2002 19:57:54 -0800"
|
||
Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 23:10:28 -0500
|
||
Message-ID: <3715.1036037428@sss.pgh.pa.us>
|
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From: Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>
|
||
X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS new-20020517
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||
Status: OR
|
||
|
||
Barry Lind <blind@xythos.com> writes:
|
||
> I am not sure I follow. Are you suggesting:
|
||
> 1) create function takes java source and then calls gcj to compile it
|
||
> to native and build a .so from it that would get called at runtime?
|
||
> or
|
||
> 2) create function takes java source and just compiles to java .class
|
||
> files and the runtime invokes the gcj java interpreter.
|
||
> or I guess you could do both at the same time.
|
||
|
||
The impression I had (after not looking very closely) was that you could
|
||
expect to compile to bytecodes on the fly and then run the gcj
|
||
interpreter. But the .so alternative might be a good fallback if that
|
||
doesn't work.
|
||
|
||
> In either case I am concerned about licensing issues. gcj is not under
|
||
> a BSD style license. Depending on what you need you are either dealing
|
||
> with regular GPL, LGPL, or LGPL with a special java exception.
|
||
> I beleive (without giving it too much thought) that doing either 1 or 2
|
||
> above would end up linking GPL code into postgres. This can be worked
|
||
> around by requiring the the necessary gcj libraries be installed
|
||
> separately and detected at configure time (like is done elsewhere). But
|
||
> is does (I think) present a problem for commercial products that would
|
||
> like to redistribute postgres with pljava.
|
||
|
||
Good point, but unless you want to build a BSD-license Java
|
||
implementation, there will never be a pljava that doesn't have different
|
||
licensing restrictions than PG itself does. gcj is at least more free
|
||
than either Sun's or IBM's JVM ...
|
||
|
||
> Another challenge here it that the java code is going to want to use the
|
||
> jdbc api when communicating with the database.
|
||
|
||
Yes. I think we'd need a new implementation of jdbc that sits atop SPI
|
||
(invoked via jni I guess) rather than a FE/BE connection. How well
|
||
layered is our jdbc code --- would this mean a large rewrite, or just
|
||
rolling in a new bottom layer?
|
||
|
||
regards, tom lane
|
||
|
||
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From pgsql-hackers-owner+M31202@postgresql.org Thu Oct 31 21:18:38 2002
|
||
Return-path: <pgsql-hackers-owner+M31202@postgresql.org>
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|
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Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 10:27:03 -0800
|
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From: Barry Lind <blind@xythos.com>
|
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|
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To: Tom Lane <tgl@sss.pgh.pa.us>
|
||
cc: pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org
|
||
Subject: Re: [HACKERS] PG functions in Java: maybe use gcj?
|
||
References: <819.1036006197@sss.pgh.pa.us> <3DC0AA42.4000205@xythos.com> <3715.1036037428@sss.pgh.pa.us>
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Status: OR
|
||
|
||
|
||
|
||
Tom Lane wrote:
|
||
> Barry Lind <blind@xythos.com> writes:
|
||
>
|
||
>>In either case I am concerned about licensing issues. gcj is not under
|
||
>>a BSD style license. Depending on what you need you are either dealing
|
||
>>with regular GPL, LGPL, or LGPL with a special java exception.
|
||
>>I beleive (without giving it too much thought) that doing either 1 or 2
|
||
>>above would end up linking GPL code into postgres. This can be worked
|
||
>>around by requiring the the necessary gcj libraries be installed
|
||
>>separately and detected at configure time (like is done elsewhere). But
|
||
>>is does (I think) present a problem for commercial products that would
|
||
>>like to redistribute postgres with pljava.
|
||
>
|
||
>
|
||
> Good point, but unless you want to build a BSD-license Java
|
||
> implementation, there will never be a pljava that doesn't have different
|
||
> licensing restrictions than PG itself does. gcj is at least more free
|
||
> than either Sun's or IBM's JVM ...
|
||
>
|
||
|
||
It depends on what you mean by more free. An architecture that
|
||
interacts with an external jvm would let you use any jvm (free ones as
|
||
well as others). From a licensing standpoint it is generally easy to
|
||
redistribute a jvm or expect the user to have one installed (most java
|
||
based products out there today do this).
|
||
|
||
However in the proposal here we are talking about requiring a specific
|
||
jvm (gcj) and actually linking parts of it into postgres. To the extent
|
||
that GPL code is linked in the GPL extends to the entire code base. As
|
||
I said previously there are ways to work around this, but it becomes
|
||
tricky. Especially when a commercial product wants to bundle postgres
|
||
and pljava. That resulting bundle is probably entirely under the GPL
|
||
and then any changes to it are also GPL. So it could be the case that
|
||
this company would be prevented from submitting improvements they made
|
||
back to the core product because their improvements are GPLed as a
|
||
result of pljava.
|
||
|
||
Now having said all that, I have been monitoring the progres of gcj for
|
||
some time because I think there are very interesting possibilities. And
|
||
I am all for anyone who wants to look into it further and investigate
|
||
the possiblities. I just want to raise the licensing issue because it
|
||
can cause problems and it is better to think about them up front than
|
||
after the fact.
|
||
|
||
>
|
||
>>Another challenge here it that the java code is going to want to use the
|
||
>>jdbc api when communicating with the database.
|
||
>
|
||
>
|
||
> Yes. I think we'd need a new implementation of jdbc that sits atop SPI
|
||
> (invoked via jni I guess) rather than a FE/BE connection. How well
|
||
> layered is our jdbc code --- would this mean a large rewrite, or just
|
||
> rolling in a new bottom layer?
|
||
>
|
||
|
||
It isn't as well layered as it could be, but it isn't too bad. Overall
|
||
it shouldn't be too much work, but not a little project either. One
|
||
area that isn't well layered is the assumption that the raw data from
|
||
the server is in text format, since that is what the FE/BE protocol
|
||
provides. So all the conversion functions that convert to/from java
|
||
datatypes do so in this format. This assumption runs deep into the
|
||
code. As a first pass it would be easiest to get raw data from SPI
|
||
convert to text and then convert to java datatypes instead of going
|
||
directly from the internal SPI format directly to java datatypes. This
|
||
could be improved upon later.
|
||
|
||
> regards, tom lane
|
||
>
|
||
|
||
thanks,
|
||
--Barry
|
||
|
||
|
||
|
||
|
||
|
||
|
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From pgsql-hackers-owner+M31223@postgresql.org Fri Nov 1 07:34:24 2002
|
||
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for <pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org>; Fri, 01 Nov 2002 12:34:08 +0000
|
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Subject: Re: [HACKERS] PG functions in Java: maybe use gcj?
|
||
From: Oliver Elphick <olly@lfix.co.uk>
|
||
To: pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org
|
||
In-Reply-To: <3DC175F7.90901@xythos.com>
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References: <819.1036006197@sss.pgh.pa.us> <3DC0AA42.4000205@xythos.com>
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<3715.1036037428@sss.pgh.pa.us> <3DC175F7.90901@xythos.com>
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Content-Type: text/plain
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
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X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.0.8
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Date: 01 Nov 2002 12:34:08 +0000
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Message-ID: <1036154048.7925.73.camel@linda>
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MIME-Version: 1.0
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X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS new-20020517
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Precedence: bulk
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Sender: pgsql-hackers-owner@postgresql.org
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X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS new-20020517
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Status: OR
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On Thu, 2002-10-31 at 18:27, Barry Lind wrote:
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> However in the proposal here we are talking about requiring a specific
|
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> jvm (gcj) and actually linking parts of it into postgres. To the extent
|
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> that GPL code is linked in the GPL extends to the entire code base. As
|
||
> I said previously there are ways to work around this, but it becomes
|
||
> tricky. Especially when a commercial product wants to bundle postgres
|
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> and pljava. That resulting bundle is probably entirely under the GPL
|
||
> and then any changes to it are also GPL. So it could be the case that
|
||
> this company would be prevented from submitting improvements they made
|
||
> back to the core product because their improvements are GPLed as a
|
||
> result of pljava.
|
||
|
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Nothing that company does can affect the licensing of PostgreSQL itself
|
||
- it doesn't belong to them, so they cannot change its licence.
|
||
|
||
Nothing in the GPL forces them to put GPL copyright on their own
|
||
alterations.
|
||
|
||
What they cannot do is to _distribute_ binary code that links to GPL
|
||
code while giving fewer rights to their distributees than they
|
||
themselves received with the GPL code, whether in respect of their own
|
||
code or the GPL code. Therefore they would be required to make their
|
||
source changes available to anyone to whom they gave a binary, and they
|
||
would not be able to restrict the further distribution of those
|
||
changes. They can contribute those changes to the project under
|
||
whatever licence they wish that is acceptable to the project.
|
||
|
||
Furthermore, gcj is part of the GNU compiler collection, like gcc, and
|
||
using it does not in itself cause code compiled under it to be subject
|
||
to the GPL. Linking to its runtime library would normally cause that,
|
||
but the gcj-3.0 copyright contains the following text:
|
||
|
||
========================================================================
|
||
The libgcj library is licensed under the terms of the GNU General
|
||
Public License, with this special exception:
|
||
|
||
As a special exception, if you link this library with other files
|
||
to produce an executable, this library does not by itself cause
|
||
the resulting executable to be covered by the GNU General Public
|
||
License. This exception does not however invalidate any other
|
||
reasons why the executable file might be covered by the GNU
|
||
General Public License.
|
||
========================================================================
|
||
|
||
--
|
||
Oliver Elphick Oliver.Elphick@lfix.co.uk
|
||
Isle of Wight, UK
|
||
http://www.lfix.co.uk/oliver
|
||
GPG: 1024D/3E1D0C1C: CA12 09E0 E8D5 8870 5839 932A 614D 4C34 3E1D 0C1C
|
||
========================================
|
||
"But they that wait upon the LORD shall renew their
|
||
strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles;
|
||
they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk,
|
||
and not faint." Isaiah 40:31
|
||
|
||
|
||
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